Legislature(2005 - 2006)CAPITOL 124
04/12/2005 08:00 AM House COMMUNITY & REGIONAL AFFAIRS
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| HB249 | |
| HB9 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| *+ | HB 9 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| *+ | HB 249 | TELECONFERENCED | |
HB 9-HYDROGEN ENERGY RESEARCH PROGRAM CO-CHAIR THOMAS announced that the final order of business would be HOUSE BILL NO. 9, "An Act establishing the Hydrogen Energy Partnership in the Department of Commerce, Community, and Economic Development; requiring the commissioner of commerce, community, and economic development to seek public and private funding for the partnership; providing for the contingent repeal of an effective date; and providing for an effective date." 9:17:27 AM REPRESENTATIVE HARRY CRAWFORD, Alaska State Legislature, sponsor, explained that HB 9 would establish a hydrogen energy partnership in order to provide a repository for federal funds and industry funds that would go toward hydrogen energy research and development. He further explained that stranded alternative energy sources, such as wind or tidal energy, can be utilized and moved where necessary [through hydrogen], which he characterized as a storage bank. Alaska is fortunate in that it has large fossil fuel resources as well as alternative energy sources. He opined that the next Prudhoe Bay will be developing Alaska's hydrogen fuel sources. This legislations provides a way in which to start the aforementioned process. 9:19:54 AM REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN acknowledged the benefits of hydrogen energy, but opined that it's relatively expensive to develop at this time. He asked if the sponsor has a business plan specifying the market, the profit margin, et cetera. Representative Neuman noted his support for the development of alternative energy sources, but stated that there are many questions [to be answered]. REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD agreed that there are many questions, but pointed out that HB 9 provides a way to begin to answer them. He noted that a number of studies are already occurring. For instance, there has been a proposal for a demonstration project at the Island of Akutan where there are geothermal resources. If the Island of Akutan built a 10-15 megawatt unit to be powered by geothermal resources, it would have excess power for the portion of the year in which the fish processing plant isn't in operation. Representative Crawford specified that one of the [goals] is to produce hydrogen through an electrolysis process and then ship that hydrogen to small villages throughout Western Alaska in order to power fuel cells. He noted that much of this is in the concept stage, and this legislation provides a place where concepts can be taken in order to develop into an actual project. 9:23:17 AM REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN expressed concern with the expense of this. He suggested that another part of the process is reviewing competing energy sources. He highlighted that those in Galena are reviewing the possibility of constructing a small nuclear plant for Western Alaska. He inquired as to what other concepts are being reviewed beyond hydrogen. REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD explained that these aren't competing energy sources because hydrogen dovetails with all the alternative energy sources. He explained that with wind, for example, a lot of electricity can be produced when the wind is blowing. Therefore, there needs to be a way to store the excess energy to be able to use it during times when there is no wind. Hydrogen would be a way to store the aforementioned wind energy until it's needed. 9:25:39 AM REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN asked then if electrical energy can be stored by attaching it to a hydrogen molecule. REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD replied no. He explained that the alternative energy is used to turn water into hydrogen and then the hydrogen is stored to be burned when necessary. REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN pointed out that there are already batteries that store [energy] generated by wind. REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD acknowledged that batteries help take some of the ups and downs out of wind power. However, the large amounts of power that could be generated [by alternative energy sources such as wind] can't be stored [in batteries]. However, unlimited amounts of energy can be stored in hydrogen if there are tanks to store the hydrogen. 9:27:18 AM CARYL MCCONKIE, Development Manager, Office of Economic Development, Department of Commerce, Community, & Economic Development (DCCED), informed the committee that the department takes no position on HB 9 because it's a policy call for the legislature. She related her understanding that [the Office of Economic Development] would be responsible for creating a new program. Although [the department] doesn't have the staff resources to actively seek funding for this legislation, in the past the industry has come forward with support for new programs. Furthermore, [the Office of Economic Development] works closely with the Alaska Travel Industry Association, which provides private sector funding for partnership programs with the state. At the time [the department] would be able to receive statutorily designated program receipts, it would move forward with this program. 9:28:55 AM REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN inquired as to how hydrogen energy compares to other alternative energy sources. MS. MCCONKIE deferred to staff from the Alaska Energy Authority. 9:30:07 AM DAVID LOCKARD, Technical Engineer II, Alaska Industrial Development & Export Authority (AIDEA) and Alaska Energy Authority (AEA), Department of Commerce, Community, & Economic Development (DCCED), reminded the committee that hydrogen is not a source of energy but rather is a way to store energy. The various alternative energy forms could be used to provide energy and be stored in hydrogen for use at a later date. 9:30:55 AM REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN restated his earlier question as to how alternative energy sources, over the course of the next 20 or so years, would compare. He inquired as to how the experts see the development and questioned whether the funds put forth for this would be better spent on other types of alternative energy. MS. MCCONKIE said that she constantly weighs such questions when deciding program funding. With respect to the statutorily designated receipts for this, she envisioned that would come from private sector sources, or elsewhere specifically interested in this program. Therefore, she viewed the situation as being demand driven. 9:32:24 AM SARA FISHER-GOAD, Alaska Industrial Development & Export Authority (AIDEA) and Alaska Energy Authority (AEA), Department of Commerce, Community, & Economic Development (DCCED), related her understanding that that the initial funding would come from private sources available to start the program. She thought that many of Representative Neuman's questions would be answered through the energy partnership, specifically in regard to where hydrogen would fit in the long-term planning for alternatives to diesel fuel. 9:33:19 AM REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA highlighted that there has been a history of trying to find alternatives to existing energy sources. Therefore, she questioned how HB 9 furthers the existing efforts in regard to alternative energy sources. MS. FISHER-GOAD related her understanding that the intent of the partnership is to develop a process and program to answer questions regarding how hydrogen would fit in with other potential alternative energy sources and any cost benefit that would result. Section 2 of the legislation requires reporting to the legislature, which would seem to afford an annual dialogue with the legislature regarding where hydrogen would fit in with other alternative energy programs. 9:35:43 AM REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD specified that hydrogen needs to be viewed as a storage unit rather than an alternative energy source itself. Hydrogen isn't in competition with [alternative energy sources]. He posed a situation in which a 200 megawatt coal plant is built in the Interior. Running the coal plant at peak efficiency isn't required all the time. However, if it's run at 40-50 percent efficiency, its benefit is lost. Therefore, if the coal plant is hooked to a hydrogen system, it could run at peak efficiency all the time and produce hydrogen as a byproduct, which would save costs all around. In fact, [the consumer's] energy costs would be lowered as well. Representative Crawford specified that the idea behind this partnership is to allow private industry and electric utilities to put in money and attract matching federal funds. He noted that President Bush has allocated a couple of billion dollars for hydrogen research and development. Hawaii is now using tidal and geothermal resources to make hydrogen. Representative Crawford opined that this legislation is about Alaska's future. He further opined that hydrogen, a clean burning and renewable fuel, is the fuel of the future. 9:39:07 AM REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA related her understanding that HB 9 is augmenting the pioneering efforts that have occurred in the Bush with alternative energy sources, and it needs to be in place in addition to those other efforts. REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD agreed, reiterating that hydrogen enhances the efforts of alternative energy sources because it offers a manner in which to store and transport those alternative energy sources. 9:40:32 AM BILL LEIGHTY, Director, The Leighty Foundation, informed the committee that he is an electrical engineer. He further informed the committee that in the last four years he has concentrated on research papers regarding the problem of bringing large-scale, stranded, renewable energy resources to distant markets. The problem of transporting the vast winds of the Great Plains was the beginning. The Leighty Foundation's first paper, which was co-funded with the Energy Foundation, compared electricity transmission to hydrogen pipeline transmission for moving the energy from a 4,000 megawatt wind plant 1,000 miles. He explained that electricity comes off the bottom of a wind generator and a high voltage DC transmission line could be built to move the energy. However, when the wind stops blowing, the line is dead. Even in the best of circumstances, the capacity of wind generation is only about 40 percent. In other words, over a year's time, a wind generation plant would only produce about 40 percent of the amount of energy it would've produced had it operated at full output the entire year. Therefore, it results in a large stranded resource. He posed the question as to whether a hydrogen pipeline would be better. MR. LEIGHTY echoed the sponsor's testimony regarding the importance for everyone understanding that hydrogen is only a storage and transmission medium for a renewable source of energy. He said that humanity's goal is have an energy system on earth that is based on benign energy sources, and therefore one should look forward long term for a sustainable energy source. The question is how to get [a sustainable energy source] to market. Mr. Leighty noted that the Japanese have been co-authors of many of the papers on which he has been working over the last several years. Japan is interested in building a large natural gas pipeline transmission system from the Russian far east to Japan. He noted that this pipeline system would be four times as big as the Alaska natural gas line. The Japanese are questioning whether the proposed gas pipeline should be built out of hydrogen-capable line pipe so that when natural gas is depleted, renewable source hydrogen can be transmitted via the same pipeline to Japan. Unfortunately, hydrogen is a terrible fuel with very low energy density by volume. For example, hydrogen fuel cars require hydrogen to be stored at a high psi in order to place enough hydrogen in the vehicle for a 300-mile range, which Americans seem to require in order to avoid going to the gas station more than once a week. 9:46:05 AM MR. LEIGHTY concluded by noting his support for HB 9 and its use of the partnership concept. He then noted that the proposal embodied in HB 9 is closely related to the International Partnership for the Hydrogen Economy launched by the Bush Administration. The International Partnership of Hydrogen, a large task requiring the cooperation of many countries, has resulted in 12 nations plus the European union coming together in partnership. Although there is no funding, the [organization] offers the ability to attract such from public and private sources. This is similar to what is proposed in HB 9 and could result in research and development specific to peculiarities in Alaska. He suggested that opportunities that may arise may relate to storage and transmission of large-scale renewable energy resources over long distances. He mentioned the need for seasonal-scale storage, which may be an opportunity for Alaska. 9:49:30 AM REPRESENTATIVE SALMON inquired as to the amount of line loss that will occur with hydrogen. MR. LEIGHTY said that The Leighty Foundation's paper that will be presented at the 2005 Energy Conference addresses this question regarding how far hydrogen can be transported via a pipeline before a compressor station is necessary. He informed the committee that hydrogen could be transported via a pipeline up to 1,000 miles with no compressors at the input or at the midline. Although the pressure will decrease from 1,500 psi at the source to 500 psi at the destination, it's an acceptable pressure loss. However, he noted that high pressure electorlyzers are becoming available such that electricity is put in and hydrogen comes out because the water molecule is split due to the pressure. In response to Representative Neuman's earlier question regarding competition, Mr. Leighty said that he reviewed the problem of moving large-scale wind energy over a long distance via pipelines. The Leighty Foundation's calculations specify that [the cost of the hydrogen at its destination] is $1.50-$2.50 per kilogram. He informed the committee that a kilogram of hydrogen has approximately the same energy content as 1 gallon of gasoline. However, an owner of a hydrogen fuel cell electric car would provide twice as many vehicle miles per kilogram of hydrogen than a gallon of gasoline because a fuel cell is more efficient. 9:52:30 AM MR. LEIGHTY showed the committee a demonstrator to illustrate how a renewable source of energy is stored in hydrogen to produce/transform the energy into electricity. He specified that the demonstrator highlights that one must first have an energy source in which to make the hydrogen, then the hydrogen can be stored, and then returned into electricity [when necessary]. 9:54:32 AM REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN turned to the matter of transporting hydrogen in Alaska. He highlighted that energy can only change form, and every time that it changes form it loses energy. Therefore, he inquired as to how the transport of energy is impacted by Alaska's extreme temperatures. MR. LEIGHTY explained that transporting hydrogen through a pipeline is similar to transporting natural gas through a pipeline. Therefore, if natural gas can be transported via a pipeline at 40 below zero, so can hydrogen. The big difference and disadvantage, he noted, is that hydrogen is one-third the energy density of natural gas and thus three times as many standard cubic feet of hydrogen are used to obtain the same amount of energy at the destination point as would be achieved with natural gas. 9:56:14 AM MR. LEIGHTY offered three cautions in regard to HB 9. First, the transmission of hydrogen will always be very costly. He informed the committee that his Japanese co-authors were bold and drew a pipeline down the Alaska Peninsula, across the Aleutian Islands to Kamchatku, down the Sakhalin to the Home Islands, with wind generators the entire length. He noted that the Bering Sea is one of the windiest places on earth. Perhaps, the future for Alaska is to have sea-born wind generators making hydrogen and placing it in the sub-sea pipeline to send to California or Japan. 9:57:23 AM REPRESENTATIVE SALMON inquired as to how much energy could be held in a large-scale pipeline. MR. LEIGHTY answered that a 36-inch diameter pipeline from North Dakota to Chicago is 1,000 miles. In such a pipeline, if the pipeline is packed to 1,000 psi, it stores 120,000 megawatt hours, which is 120 gigawatt hours of energy in the form of compressed hydrogen gas. Compressed hydrogen gas can be converted back to electricity or fuel. In further response to Representative Salmon, Mr. Leighty confirmed that a larger pipe, with higher pressure, provides more storage. However, he reminded the committee that in the North Dakota to Chicago scenario if the alternative energy source, wind for example, isn't available for four days and the customers in Chicago have drawn the pipeline down, there will be a need for seasonal scale, inexpensive, geologic storage. The aforementioned could be the niche in which Alaska could offer pioneering research and development. He noted that at Stanford University the Global Climate and Energy Project is looking for game changing technology advancements. "And that's the kind of thing that they might be interested in doing here. It might be a way that HB 9 can be made to work," he remarked. 9:59:08 AM MR. LEIGHTY cautioned the [legislature] not to look at [HB 9] as "end-running" the federal appropriation process to get something earmarked for a project in Alaska. 10:00:00 AM REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA moved to report HB 9 out of committee with individual recommendations and the accompanying fiscal notes. There being no objection, HB 9 was reported out of the House Community and Regional Affairs Standing Committee.
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